Coin Community Millennium Pillar Picks

How many obsolete coins are left?

Fri, 9 May 2008 11:26:53 -0400

I would love to know whether there is any information on approximately how many, say Indian cents and Buffalo nickels, are still around. I think more than 3 billion Indian cents were minted, but of this, you'd have to think some are lost forever, some were mutilated and removed by the US Mint (how often does that occur, as I see mutilated modern coins all the time in circulation still). There is also a lot of discussion about silver coins being melted in the 1980s. Very, very few of these obsolete coins are still in circulated coinage- probably 1 Buffalo nickel per every several $100 in nickels. Maybe 1 Indian cent per every $1000 in Lincoln cents. Almost never see a Mercury dime in circulation. So I would think "still in circulation" would account for a very small fraction of the surviving obsolete coins Are there any data on what % of the total obsolete coins survive to this day? The obsolete coins are in the hands of dealers and private collectors. I'm just thinking about this issue and wondering whether such information if it is available could be helpful in understanding where there might be some coin types that are actually much rarer than appreciated.

Special Uncirculated Jefferson Nickels

Sat, 26 Apr 2008 18:23:56 -0400

Does anyone have info on the 1994S and 1997S special uncirculated Jefferson Nickels? They were included in two sets from the mint--The Thomas Jefferson set in 1994 and the Botanical Garden set in 1997. The mintages are real low. Redbook says they resemble proof coins but with a matte finish. Are they that different? I guess what I am wondering about is are they worth the premium being charged for them? And also, how important are they for a complete Jefferson Nickel set? The 1997 with a mintage of only 25,000 sounds like it might be a key.

The Age Old Question... Where do I Find Coins for my Collection?

Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:04:47 -0400

Circulation - obviously, you aren't going to get very much that's too exciting or too exotic, but what you do find will be cheap - face value! If you don't handle too much coinage yourself, it never hurts to ask others for help. I know one guy who seems to have every member of his family, every resident of his housing estate and every checkout attendant in his suburb keeping an eye out for unusual coins for him.

Banks - also a great way to get interesting stuff for face value. If you hadn't noticed yet, there's an entire subculture here on the forum of people who go to banks, buy up lots of rolls of coins, open them, fish out anything odd or interesting, roll up the unwanted stuff and send it back to the bank in exchange for fresh rolls.

Another thing to ask about at banks is what they do with the "weird stuff" that's deposited there - foreign coins and notes, NCLT like bullion coins, that sort of thing. Often, bank workers are happy when someone volunteers to take that sort of thing off their hands.

Charities and Churches - people seem to put all sorts of odd things into donation and collection boxes, and often the people who count the money have no idea what to do with the stuff. Try volunteering to help out at the charity, in exchange for the opportunity to keep (or purchase from them for fair value) any weird stuff donated to them. You'll be helping yourself build a collection, and helping the charity to get fair value for the objects donated to them.

Garage Sales, Flea Markets, Antique shops, etc - Very hit-and-miss, but it works for some collectors. Many people have old/foreign coins they want to sell, and garage sales and flea markets are the place many people try to get rid of them. As I said at the start, some people can tend to think their coins are priceless treasures and ask for far more than the coins are actually worth, but other people are quite clueless and are happy to accept only a fraction of what a coin is truly worth. I know another guy about ten years ago who picked up a one ounce palladium coin at a local pawnbrokers for $10 - apparently, they didn't know what "palladium" was!

and other online sales venues - the "virtual flea market" has many of the upsides (and downsides) of a traditional flea market, with the additional problem of not actually seeing in hand the things you're buying, or meeting the people selling them face-to-face. Finding "bargains" on eBay is harder than it used to be, but still possible.

In both the real and virtual flea markets, knowledge is what will gain you the true bargains. Know your coins, and the bargains will jump out at you.

Coin dealers - find a couple of good, reliable, honest dealers nearby, and visit them regularly. A dealer who knows he has a good, reliable customer will be far more willing to seek out coins on your behalf, and offer you bargains.

How a Doubled Die Becomes a Doubled Die...

Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:27:04 -0400

In response to this question posted in another thread...

One thing I was wondering is how a double die becomes a double die?

Good question. Dies start as a bar of steel with a finely cut conical shape to the end. A positive relief (looks like the coins) steel bar called a "hub" presses the design into the die, so it's backwards on the die. This, in turn, punches the coins with the design right side out so everything looks normal.

During the process of making a die, the mint used to partially press the design (called hubbing) into the die, then send the die to an oven to cook it for a while - a day, actually. This process is called 'annealing' - it helps strengthen the steel so the die can punch a lot of coins. Then the die would return for another hubbing. This process was repeated until the die had the entire design impressed into it.

Hub doubling is the term used to describe doubling that occurs on the die during the hubbing process. The die is not fitted properly into the hubbing press for one of its hubbings, and the impression is off. It causes doubling on the die. When these dies pass inspection (none were supposed to), they would be hung on the coining press and would mint coins with doubled designs...doubled dies.

Doubled dies are scarce because the doubling is in the design on the die. The dies are very carefully hand inspected before they are placed on the press to make coins, because that design could potentially be repeated a million times...they want to make sure they get it right. But for one reason or another once in a great while a die gets used that has doubling on it.

So...why doubled dies and not machine doubling? Well, machine doubling happens any time any die gets loose in the coining press - which happens very frequently - at least daily, if not more often than that. So...machine doubling to some degree or another is VERY common. Doubled dies, as described before, is very scarce and happens infrequently.

How do you tell the difference? Simplest part is that machine doubling usually occurs with dies that have normal designs on them - the doubling is caused by the die bouncing and hitting the coin again, slightly off-kilter. This actually flattens part of the edges of some of the letters on the coins, effectively making them thinner than they would have been had the coin been struck normally. So, machine doubling is flattened down, and takes up part of the normal thickness of the letters.

Doubled dies, on the other hand, are struck that way because of the design on the die. So, the doubling is actually thicker than normal letters on a normal coin. the doubling stands out just like the normal letters on the coin, and there is often "notches" at the corners of the letters, where the letters overlap and the two corners of the two sets of letters don't meet. The notch is the space between the corners of the two sets of letters. Now, not all doubled dies have notching in the classic sense, but the letters are usually thicker than normal letters in some direction or another.

Best way to learn the difference...buy a few doubled dies or get a good book that shows a lot of pictures of them. Study, study, study...and do not expect to quickly find a doubled die in your change. I've been doing this for almost 30 years and can tell you from experience...finding doubled dies takes a LOT of patience.

Another way to learn is to go back about a year in the threads here and look at every picture posted. Learn from what others have found. It costs nothing to read the millions of words of posts made here on this board, and there's a lot of visual help right here.

have fun!

Two 1998 Wide AM Lincoln Memorial Cents

Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:16:08 -0400

I found these in a box of cents yesterday. The corrosion is a bit annoying for coins that are only 10 years old, but it's not like I paid extra for these. And thanks to Bryan for shipping me these from back East...that was very cool!

Where to Begin with Morgan Dollar VAMS?

Sat, 8 Mar 2008 17:38:23 -0500

I was talking to my buddy at the coin shop and asked him if he is into VAMS. He said "NO" and he doesn't even look for them in his stock. He said he has well over 1,000 Morgans that I could look through if I wanted to. I could take home a couple dozen each week to attribute and label them. Then I could sell a few on Ebay and split the profit with him, no money out of my pocket at all.

My question is this:
Which VAMS are worth looking for that are easy to spot when you see them?

Any help would be appreciated!

The Ongoing Fascination with Morgan Varieties

Sat, 8 Mar 2008 10:23:26 -0500

Counting 1921's, something like 650,000,000 Morgan Dollars were minted. It's not hard to find a year/mint combination which has 50,000 examples combined in PCGS/NGC slabs. This is a wonderful thing, in that it makes these shiny silver cartwheels accessible to thousands of collectors. On the other hand, there's a loss of exclusivity inherent in collecting such a common issue, unless one reaches into the upper condition ranges, where my wallet fears to tread.

Another outgrowth of such high mintage numbers is the wide diversity of Morgan Dollar varieties, called VAM's. This acronym stems from the last names of A. George Mallis and Leroy Van Allen, the two gentlemen responsible for the codification and labeling of these varieties. Every known Morgan die combination is assigned a VAM number, each year/mint combination starting at VAM-1 (a "normal" coin) and proceeding upwards with new numbers assigned to each new variety as it is discovered. Sometimes, a known variety is discovered with an additional feature that sets it apart from the original. For example, the 1878-P VAM-33 is characterized by the strongly doubled legs of the eagle. However, at some point in its' life the dies used to produce this variety clashed, and coins produced after that clash showed evidence of it. These later, clashed coins are designated VAM-33A.

Some VAM's are as common as grains of sand, and carry no additional value. Others bring a huge premium over normal pricing. The reverse die of the VAM-33 I mentioned before was also used with a different obverse, one which was hugely tripled in the leaves and cotton bolls. This variety, VAM-44, is known as the "King of VAM's and if you can find one, any one, it's going to cost you thousands of dollars to own. The 1921-D VAM-1X, showing a huge rim cud on the obverse, is unique - only one is known. If you find another, you can set your own price.

In 1997, Dr. Michael S. Fey, PhD and Jeff Oxman published a listing of popular and collectible VAM's known as the Top 100. These were chosen not so much for their rarity, although some certainly are extremely rare, as for their striking departure from "normal." Although some are fairly common, carrying little premium over standard varieties, there's still a cachet associated with owning such a coin. Many hundreds, possibly thousands, of Morgan collectors specialize in Top 100 VAM's. Both PCGS and NGC have separate Registries dedicated to Top 100 VAM's.

Now, to the point of my story (for those of you who have been able to struggle through my long-winded post). Top 100 VAM's are accessible to any of us - you need not have deep pockets to add one to your collection. Presented below are two examples, neither of which cost me any more than the "average" price for that date and grade.

Occasionally, moisture is able to accumulate in a die while in the press, and the surface of the die rusts. This is almost always found on the reverse die, since it's the bottom one. The rust eats away at the metal of the die, and coins struck by that die show raised dots called "pitting." One example is the 1897-P VAM-6A, showing pitting below the eagle's tail feathers and down to the D in DOLLAR. I was able to acquire the one shown below at no premium over a normal variety; this is a very common VAM and supply exceeds demand.

For those who would ask, the two lines across the obverse are "on" the coin, and not "in" it. I could remove them, but it would be at the cost of the coin's color, which for me forms its' character.

The most significant pitting is to be found on the Philadelphia issues of 1921. These dies had a hard life - over 20,000,000 Morgans were minted in Philadelphia that year, and VAM's abound which show serious die cracking and/or pitting. The 1921-P VAM-41A is the absolute leader of the pack when it comes to a messed-up die. The lower reverse is dramatically pitted, and this after the Mint discovered the rusted die and polished it to within an inch of its' life to remove the pitting. All the lines you see in the pics below are actually part of the die, raised from the surface of the coin. This is my all-time favorite VAM, and more than a dozen have passed through my collection. They're relatively common; the one pictured below is in a PCGS MS63 holder, cherrypicked from a prominent online dealer.

Both of these coins were not attributed by the seller. That's the point of my story. Although the 1897 was fairly priced (I informed the seller of the VAM before buying it, and the original price was honored), the 1921 is probably worth three times what I paid. Neither coin cost as much as $40. Deals like this abound. With a little money and a little knowledge, you, the collector, can go out and add significant varieties to your collection at an affordable price.

So go out and do it before I buy them all.

Counterfeit Fractional Currency TPG Graded as Authentic

Sun, 24 Feb 2008 16:51:15 -0500

Last week at the weekly Heritage auction, I purchased a Fractional Currency 2nd Issue $.50 Fr. 1317. I was happy to buy it, receive it, admire it.....and scan it...

As I was scanning the note, something didn't look right about George Washington. It looked as if he had a face make over. I took a closer look at the fonts, mumbled a few expletives and was convinced, it was a counterfeit. What makes this interesting is that the note was certified by PMG as Choice AU58 EPQ. A nice grade in my opinion, that I was thinking saved me hundreds. The note is so well centered, but you take a look at what I saw. Portraits of George Washington. Notice the shape of the face. That was the first indication.

Real	Fake

The next sequence of scans are from the upper right side of the Obverse.

Real	Fake

Look at... the "States", then on the left side, the scroll work, then the beading around the "50". The engraved lines in general are not sharp as they should be. Second the engraved fonts do not have the same balance of white and black areas. Other parts of the note showed similar differences. ie the Locomotive, cargo and mule.

Since this PMG Graded.....this is a perfect case of "buy the note and not the holder" It stumped, PMG, Heritage and at first me, but then In my due diligence, I found it. And have been receiving some nice offers for it. Sorry I am keeping it!

Jeff

The major steps of the minting process with terms explained.

Sat, 23 Feb 2008 18:29:10 -0500

Over a period of a couple of years I have read message after message by people here who do not understand the basic foundation of what they are collecting. Probably more a thing of them not having taken the time to learn, rather than an inability to get it. That's the purpose of this post...to go through and explain the basics of how things occur, so an understanding of what these things are becomes simpler.

Actually the whole process and the terms used to describe coins that result from each of the steps of the process is VERY simple. People make WAY too much of it and confuse themselves by trying to fit what they see in errors into the wrong part of the process. Doing this, they are left with no clue as to how the coin they have went wrong, and they always tend to misidentify what they have.

First things first...the planchets and dies are prepared:

Planchets start out as large and long sheets of metal rolled into coils. These sheets are fed into a 'blanking press' where the discs are cut out that will eventually be coins. This is where almost ALL planchet errors occur. Things like clips, broken planchets, wrong stock planchets, tapered planchets, etc. all have to do with the quality of the roll of metal being cut, or the machine doing the cutting.

Dies are prepared in a separate shop. A large epoxy design is placed onto a reduction lathe where feelers trace the design and reduce it onto a bar of steel. This is a master hub.

The master hub is used to impress the design in negative relief onto other bars of steel. At this point these bars of steel, called master dies, 'could' be used to mint coins, but these master dies contain the closest possible rendition of the design, so they are reserved to make other hubs called 'working hubs'. The working hubs (now in positive relief again) are used to make the working dies that actually mint coins.

So, to review...one epoxy makes a few master hubs, which make dozens of master dies, which make dozens of working hubs. Each working hub makes dozens of working dies, which mint half a million or so coins each...the copies of the original design spread like a pyramid from top to bottom with each step, because each piece of each step is used to make dozens of copies for the next step.

It's inside these steps where sub-types, varieties, and die varieties occur. Every sub-type or variety requires a new epoxy design and new master hubs...because the design actually changes. Take a star-less design and add stars, you need a new design. Take a date that's too small and make it bigger, you need a new design.

The difference between the starless to with stars design change and the small to large date change is this:

The stars would be added to enhance the design or to tell the public something changed about the coins...like the addition of arrows onto the dimes, quarters, and half dollars of 1853 to tell the public that the composition (silver content) of the metal changed. They actually changed the weight of the coins. THIS is a sub-type.

Now the change from small to large date could be nothing more than a decision to change them because they were difficult to read. It could also be that the dies were breaking too easily because the stress points of the design were wrong. At any rate, the minor changes were something the Mint did to prolong the life of the die or to make the coins look better, but these changes didn't 'tell' the public anything. It could also be as simple as a mintmark punch breaking, and its replacement looked a little different. There was no public reason for changing the designs, thus they went unannounced and mintage figures were not kept regarding the changes. THIS is a variety.

Next post...

Possibly The Worst Grading I Have Seen Yet

Sun, 17 Feb 2008 20:37:45 -0500

Saw this across the street, and just had to share. The coin was sold on ebay, for just over $300.

1737 and 1735/6 rejoined Pistareen halves

Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:20:38 -0500

Hello folks.

Found this forum doing a quick Google search and thought I'd sign up and post looking for some information.

Looking for some comments as to the value of this coin. I found it a few weeks ago metal detecting. Had a great member on MDing board send the pictures to some Spanish II Reale experts and this is what one of them said.

"Interesting: according to Cayón's book, a 1737 Pistareen minted in Madrid has the assayer's initials JF from 1732-40. The assayer from Seville in 1735-36 was AP. These are the halves of two coins."

" one half is 1737 and was minted in Madrid, Spain and the other half is 1735 or 1736 and was minted in Seville, Spain"

So needless to say this my new best find and the highlight of my collection. But not having seen anything like this or having been able to find any references to rejoined Pistareens, I don't know if it would be possible to put a value on it.

So what do you think?

Thanks for looking.

Edit: and just FYI, it was not rejoined by me. It was pulled from the ground like this and judging by the corrosion on the joined area it was done long ago.

1880 CC Vam: PCGS attributed it wrong?

Thu, 27 Dec 2007 16:00:00 -0500

I received this as a Christmas gift..When I put it under the scope I was a bit surprised. Below are some shots..To me it simply looks like a dash under the 8. I don't see anything remotely close to a 7 or 9 underneath them; unless someone else sees something that I don't.

Breaking News on the State Quarter & Presidential Dollar

Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:35:00 -0500

Is it or is it not true?

Well, the bill passed the House and the Senate and is waiting for the President to sign into law.

Regarding the State Quarters - We have 6 more coins to add in 2009:

quote:
Section 622 adds an 11th year in 2009 to the 50-state quarter program and six more coins: Washington, D.C., and five insular territories: American Samoa, Guam, American Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico and Commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands. Most have been American possessions for over a century.

Do we still have "edge lettering" on the Presidential Dollars, since they only require the phrase "In God We Trust" to move to the face?

quote:
Section 623 would require that the new Presidential dollar coin program remove the national motto, "In God We Trust," from the edge of the coin and restore it to the obverse, where it appears on all other coin issues. The change would be required "as soon as is practicable after the date of enactment.

What will the future hold for those "Godless" coins error? Will there be a "market" for those Coins with edge letter?

1982 DDR - Major Lincoln Cent Discovery

Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:24:09 -0500

A fantastic new discovery by our own ziggy9! Chuck Daugherty of Coppercoins.com pretty much says it all in this quote....

"At present, the 1982DDR is UNIQUE. Only that piece has ever been reported in any way. I have checked all references and it simply doesn't exist in print or on the web. That's about to change. I hesitate to jump out and toss value onto something like this without having seen the piece in person, but I venture to guess these will PROBABLY be as scarce as the 1969S DDO, yet its value will always be hampered by the fact that the doubling is on the reverse. I would think, however, if this piece is AU and were to be offered to the right bidders, a price tag of over $1000 would be possible."

Chuck now has the coin in his possession and has done a complete work up on it. You can see all the all the details here along with more great photos. Read and discuss the actual exciting discovery of this coin in the 1982 DDR Revisited topic on the forum.

Hits and the MS65 grade.....

Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:17:47 -0500

Just what could / should / would be tolerated?

Here's a PCGS MS65 with what appears to be substantial hit....

What do you think?

3 Reasons You Should Have More Than One eBay ID

Tue, 18 Dec 2007 18:15:04 -0500

First let me say that it is 100% allowed, you just need a different email address for additional accounts.

1) If you sell on eBay you should never buy with your selling ID. If you run into a seller that you must leave a less than positive feedback for, you may get a less than positive feedback in return. This can be devastating to your seller account but doesn't hurt your buyer account.

2) If you buy and sell on eBay, as a seller, you don't want your buyers to be able to look up what you paid for an item.

3) You need to have a secret buyer ID because believe it or not there are buyer stalkers. If you're very good at spotting deals, like die varieties and errors, you'll want to use a discrete buying ID to buy those coins. If someone slick catches on to your smarts, they will follow you.

Please, get together another email address right now and do it, so I don't have to post a link back to this thread and say "I told you so" after one of these things happens to you.

Register right now here.

Archaeological Profit -- Your Thoughts

Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:20:32 -0500

As I was reading my recent issue of Archaeology magazine I noticed in the Letters to the Editor section that an individual was compelled to broach the emotionally, legally, and scientifically charged topic of recovering "ahem, BOOTY" from sunken treasure ships without archaeological documentation.

What do you think about the issue and the article. Remember this is a magazine dedicated to the study of the past. Here is the article for your enjoyment.